1. Create an account to join in the discussion. Once you register don't forget to enter our monthly drawings.

    Register to post on our forum.
  2. Home Theater Lounge will begin holding a live chat every Wednesday evening at 9pm Central. The goal is to get as many members online at the same time and just talk movies, music, and gear. You can join the chat by going to the Shoutbox app.
    Dismiss Notice
  3. Dismiss Notice

Ajit Pai is a real serious piece of fucking shit!

Discussion in 'Smartphones, Computers, Gaming and Networking' started by CJ, Jul 17, 2017.

  1. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

  2. DYohn

    DYohn Well-Known Member Donor

    Top Poster Of Month

    This surprises you?
     
  3. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    Nope. Just want to make sure everyone knows, especially anyone who voted for his Oompa Loompa jackass boss.
     
    DYohn and Max Yokell like this.
  4. JeffC

    JeffC Active Member War Zone Member

    I'm not sure that CDN's haven't made net neutrality a moot point. Especially with most small businesses dealing with AWS or Azure.

    But, make broadband a utility and throw some of that government money at us rural users. :D :D I'd like my 10Mb please.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  5. Phil A

    Phil A Active Member Top Poster

  6. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    The concept that companies will self regulate by way of competition (e.g. consumers will reject dirty dealing, poor product companies) is so beyond laughable in MANY cases (not all) but in this particular space it is just supremely unrealistic. Something like 80% of the US only has one choice for truly fast internet and the barriers to entry are astronomical.

    As someone who gets internet from a cable company like many (most?) people, and just switched to OTT for ALL television content, I'm just waiting for the pain to start when net neutrality likely gets killed.

    But my biggest issue here is just what a colossal shitbag Pai is. There is overwhelming support in favor of Net Neutrality and he just doesn't care.
     
    Last edited: Jul 18, 2017
  7. JeffC

    JeffC Active Member War Zone Member

    I'm curious. What are your thoughts on Netflix OpenConnect?

    Blantant violation of Net Neutrality or network management?
     
  8. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    That's a great question. I personally think its logical network management as:
    1. It is theoretically designed to benefit all three parties (the ISP, the Consumer, and Netflix). The ISPs don't have to move the data across the entire backbone for each request, consumers get the data faster, and Netflix gets a bump of customer satisfaction (and maybe saves money by hauling data over fewer networks, you tell me?)
    2. The consumer isn't being charged on an individual level for this by either Netflix nor the ISP. Its not CJ is no Netflix + at a higher price and Jeff isn't or CJ is on COX + Media at a higher price and Jeff is on COX Basic.
    Maybe that sounds like fast lane, faster lane bullshit but I don't think so.

    My fear with the death of Net Neutrality is essentially one of anti-competition (Cable company slowing down Netflix/Hulu/Sling/etc.) or extortion (You want Netflix? You pay for COX + Media, regardless of the fact that you may be using less data than someone using a non-competing internet service, e.g. cloud backups).

    Is that a sound argument in your mind or am I full of shit?
     
    DYohn likes this.
  9. JeffC

    JeffC Active Member War Zone Member

    Your argument is great for large ISPs. They get the devices for free (Verizon made them pay to rack them up :D) and it's a win for all involved, just like you said.

    Some of the smaller ISPs have to pay by getting into "peer agreements" with Netflix Open Connect customers where all they pass is Netflix on a dedicated line. And it can come down to having to do that just to make the rest of the internet experience on thier normal back hual acceptable. That's a pretty tough road considering the cost of a dedicated line back ot them. This ends up being a business decision but it's forced by Netflix.

    In almost every case, these CDNs(content delivery networks) are a win for the ISP and the consumer. But, they are not net neutral. And all of these things that improve service and reduce costs for the ISP will be classified as network management. Which is great I suppose as long as we like it. And we better like it because every single policy will be that way unless it's overturned by the FCC.
     
  10. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    That's interesting... I'd have to think about if I have a problem with this. We all know that big businesses often get preferential treatment and discounts so I don't find that inherently unfair. I bet AWS pays less for a Cisco router than my firm does.

    As far as CDNs inherently not being "net neutral" I guess my concerns around Net Neutrality have more to do with accessibility. There's no guarantee in business that you're entitled to be able to afford a certain business model. But, you shouldn't be blocked by your competition. If I want to start CJTube today with the same basic business model as Hulu and Netflix, I'm going to have an almost certain chance of failure. The model is big and expensive and crowded now. But if I can raise the capital and sign the content agreements, I shouldn't fail because Netflix pays Comcast and COX to block my traffic to their customers. That's BS.

    The somewhat unique issue here is the delivery mechanism providers are competing with the people providing the delivered product. It would be like if Amazon bought UPS and FedEx and started holding NewEgg packages in warehouses for a week simply to delay delivery.
     
  11. JeffC

    JeffC Active Member War Zone Member

    Like you, I don't want to see web sites blocked. What prevents them from blocking them now?

    ISPs block P2P ports, Port 25 for email relays, various other ports, entire email domains and malicious websites (allegedly) that cause problems on the network. I don't see why they couldn't block a URL and just call it malicious.

    What do you think about CDN devices (like a Netflix FreeBSD server) being allowed in ISP data centers and hulu is not? Can a business decide not to mount a cache server in it's own data center if it doesn't want to? A similar example could be GGC (google global cache) and yahoo. Should Google fiber be allowed to use GGC and refuse to mount a yahoo device (if one were to exist)?

    If someone were to tell me they were all for net neutrality and that these CDN cache devices offered an unfairly expensive barrier to entry and shouldn't be allowed... I'd have a hard time finding an argument that was anything but pro ISP. They do offer a slight benefit to the customer maybe, but it's so small compared to the ISPs value in bandwidth reduction and customer satisfaction.

    It's a tough topic IMO.
     
  12. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    They could try but I'd love to see them defend, in court, calling Netflix malicious. They would get sued and lose.

    It is a tough topic. Where's the middle ground?

    How do you say, "You're not allowed to fuck with the end consumer's legitimate, legal traffic just because you compete with (or even just don't like) the traffic source" without creating unintended technical consequences and even infeasibilities for ISPs?

    You and I have been having this debate for years. Its easy for a politician or consumer to say "you can't do X" but the network guy knows never being able to do X means the network breaks. So if we agree that its a laudable goal that Comcast should not be allowed to block Netflix, nor make using the service so miserable (throttling) that is practically the same as blocking it, how do we achieve that legally / rules-wise???
     
  13. JeffC

    JeffC Active Member War Zone Member

    On the consumer side they're protected by the FTC, but I'm guessing the ToS when you sign up for internet pretty much excludes the promise of access outside the ISP network. I don't know of any way they could gurantee that you would always have access xxxxx.com when xxxxx.com could fold up over night.

    On the FCC side, it's pretty difficult to write a practical law for this. I mean, ATT and Verizon throttle cellular internet right now. I'm sure they do that by ToS as well, but if your ISP made you agree to them throttling (hell, they may) before you sign the ToS what are you going to do? We've already established that they block other services and those businesses don't have any recourse.

    Of course, blocking Netflix would cause a high level of consumer outrage but would they have a basis to sue? What basis?
     
  14. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    Guaranteeing unfettered access is that the same as guaranteeing continual service of the end content. Its no different than the fact that civil rights laws guarantee that Blockbuster can't ban black people but civil rights don't guarantee black people that Blockbuster will never fold up.

    You make several references to ToS. You can't use ToS to abdicate providing your core service any more than you can fully abdicate liability for physical injury or death with a waiver, especially an implied waver with e.g. purchasing an amusement park ticket. If Disney egregiously fails to tighten the bolts on Space Mountain and you die, they can't hide behind the implied waiver of liability that accompanies the ticket purchase. IMO an ISP can't ToS themselves out of providing internet services ;)
     
  15. JeffC

    JeffC Active Member War Zone Member

    I'm pretty sure an ISP customer is not a protected class. :D

    Verizon and ATT throttle after a certain amount of data now. They put it in their ads. How do they get away with that?
     
  16. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    You missed my point. Disney customers are not a protected class either. My point is that there are piles of legal precedent stating that a ToS doesn't supersede basic fitness for intended purpose concepts. Same with warranties.

    Different concept. They're throttling ALL your traffic after you reach a certain data limit. That is the definition of neutral. Before the limit they treat all traffic equally. After the limit they treat all traffic equally slowly. Neutral, agnostic, totally OK.
     
  17. capsuleri

    capsuleri Well-Known Member

    Perhaps another solution may be that Amazon, Google, Netflix, Microsoft, Facebook and like band together and start an ISP based on a co-op model. They can also making each individual subscriber a part owner with limited voting rights. All of them together certainly has more wherewithal than each of the current ISPs. They could use all modes of delivery fiber, copper, wireless, satellite, stationary balloons, drones etc etc.
     
  18. JeffC

    JeffC Active Member War Zone Member

    What do you think about TMobile offering Zero Data internet service for Netflix? That seems like a clear violation of net neutrality.

    Appreciate your time today BTW. Interesting discussion.
     
  19. CJ

    CJ Well-Known Member Admin War Zone Member

    This falls directly into the fast lane faster lane bullshit. They're not (necessarily) blocking or throttling Hulu but giving Netflix preference is decidedly nu-neutral.

    Also, I meant to add in my response to your earlier post where you talked about ToS... again it highlights another key problem in that if Comcast has a raging piece of shit anti consumer you owe us your first born ToS but they're the only internet provider in your sub-division you're screwed. So I simply do not abide by this idea that everyone must be OK with what we've got because they accepted the ToS. They don't have a choice. http://gizmodo.com/22-000-people-agree-to-clean-toilets-for-wifi-because-t-1796959482

    I sincerely agree on both sentiments!
     
  20. JeffC

    JeffC Active Member War Zone Member

    I agree. I wonder why the FCC isn't doing anything about it? Maybe because most of their customers like it?

    In any case, I'll have to put more thought into this. I'm not sure I have many of the answers right now.
     

Share This Page