A sincere but probably unpopular question

Discussion in 'The VIP Lounge' started by CJ, Oct 11, 2017.

  1. CJ

    CJ Bronze Member Admin War Zone Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    In light of the Weinstein bombshell I have a horrible but sincere question. Do victims who keep quite for fear of reprisal or especially those who settle for money to keep quiet bear any "responsibility" for subsequent victims?

    Now the horrible part of this is like, dude they're a victim. They're in a position where coming forward could result in loss of livelihood.

    I think in cases where people who are NOT victims themselves know something but don't speak out it is probably a little worse, but allow me to make an argument that it is not significantly worse. In the Gerry Sandusky case both underlings and superiors knew what was going on. The underlings were certainly in the same position as the victims in the Weinstein case in the sense that their entire livelihood was on the line. Sure they don't have to endure the victim shaming that often comes with the publicity, but its not like they had nothing to lose and just chose to keep quiet.

    This pondering is driven by a couple things that have happened. Other actors have come out and said Weinstein harassed or assaulted me too. And secondly, for example Terry Crews came out and said a hollywood exec groped his genitals at a gala or something similar. But in this case he's not citing Weinstein but he's also not naming the perpetrator. So this person who may be doing more harm is in some sense being protected by a victim.

    I sincerely apologize if anyone finds this distasteful. I don't know what I would do if I were ever in this situation, but just intellectually, it seems like we really need to stop being hush hush about powerful people being shits.

    Final cynical question... how long before Harvey Weinstein is making movies with Mel Gibson?
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  2. Chris Slade

    Chris Slade Active Member War Zone Member Top Poster

    We had a similar situation up here in the North Country a while back with a CBC broadcaster and household name. People came forward, they lied etc. and made complete fools of themselves in court, even though he probably did what they said, it was a disaster.

    I think your post is fine, the conversations around this stuff are difficult and interesting, my wife and I have talked at length on the topic and not agreed on many points. This is super tough stuff.
  3. DustinDavis

    DustinDavis Well-Known Member War Zone Member

    I haven’t thought through your actual question but I wanted to say: I think exploration of potentially unpleasant or offensive moral hypotheticals is not only valuable but imperative for moral advancement.
    Rick C likes this.
  4. JeffC

    JeffC Well-Known Member War Zone Member

    I'll take any possible heat off you.

    If something happens to you, and you don't report it, are you even a victim?
  5. DustinDavis

    DustinDavis Well-Known Member War Zone Member

    This to me is simply, yes you are. Any argument made to the contrary presumably assumes one has the ability to choose whether to report, such that not having chosen to report excludes one from being in the victim class. But let us suppose one is impaired either physically or mentally and cannot report, or does not understand the importance of doing so. Do we exclude that person from the victim class? No. People can and do suffer in silence, voluntarily and involuntarily. It is the perpetrator’s action that determines this, not the response or lack thereof.
  6. Mike B

    Mike B Well-Known Member Donor War Zone Member Top Poster

    This has been going on since the beginning of humanity. The rich and powerful have an easy time with the poor and weak.

    I do not care or feel the victim should do or say anything they don't want to. I do hope the guilty get what they deserve in the end.
  7. CJ

    CJ Bronze Member Admin War Zone Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    I respect your take on the matter but it doesn't really answer my admittedly difficult question. If the victim does not want to say anything, do they bare any responsibility for future victims? If you say no, then do outside observers get the same benefit (as they often face the same repercussions for reporting).
  8. Drew

    Drew Well-Known Member War Zone Member Top Poster

    Like many things, the answer is somewhere in the middle. Maybe its a bit selfish to stay silent because you want to maintain the status quo of your employment in hollywood, meanwhile "weaker" people (e.g. kids, etc) may become victims of that same person.

    Throw on top of that individuals accepting mountains of hush money to stay quiet. Certainly not all cases are just the money. I'm sure there are very real threats beyond. "Take this money and shut up and I won't ruin your life".

    Also: "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out— Because I was not a Socialist."
    Last edited: Oct 11, 2017
  9. Mike B

    Mike B Well-Known Member Donor War Zone Member Top Poster

    Then I won't answer your question. I'm not going to judge the victim, I'm not in his/her shoes.
  10. CJ

    CJ Bronze Member Admin War Zone Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    Yeah, I think that is another case to consider. Now you're talking blood money in my opinion. You're not JUST saying I don't want drug through the shit over this and deal with the typical victim blaming and I'm sorry to future victims I didn't have the strength to speak out. Taking hush money, for me, eliminates a lot of sympathy I have.
  11. GHilinski

    GHilinski Well-Known Member War Zone Member

    One sentence explains it all. "You will never work in this town again." Given that aspiring actors most often are usually living in a life of fantasy and think this is the only thing they can do in life makes people do strange things. Also, the term "Casting Couch" has been used openly in Hollywood for years. Why would anyone be so surprised?
  12. Phil A

    Phil A Well-Known Member Top Poster

  13. Carl V

    Carl V Well-Known Member Donor War Zone Member Top Poster

    The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

    Edmund Burke
    Read more at: Edmund Burke Quotes

    If you're a victim, YOU'RE A VICTIM.
    If you're 5 or 15 and remain silent out of fear
    shame or confusion doesn't lessen the crime...
    it may in fact intensify it.

    The gray zone is adulthood, when I would hope
    you know better, and yet you say nothing or only
    say something years later. Having never been in
    those shoes Who Am I to Judge.

    My disgust is for those who know & suspect, yet say nothing
    when they Shoulda reached out to a Victim.
  14. DustinDavis

    DustinDavis Well-Known Member War Zone Member

    Interestingly more than one victim has come out and stated that they stayed quiet so that it didn't hurt Weinstein's family. Of course that logic is not perfect either. As we see his family is hurt worse now that this problem has festered and escalated, and then of course there were more victims.

    Going back to CJ's original question about whether victims bear some responsibility, I think the short answer is yes they do. On the other hand, I think trying to develop a "right way" for a victim to respond is folly. Observers want closure and justice, and to maintain their righteous indignation as it pertains to perpetrator and victim all the while. Of course that would be more convenient. In a situation like this though, someone is just going to get hurt, no matter what.
    CJ likes this.
  15. DYohn

    DYohn Well-Known Member Donor

    Women who are subject to assaults or harassment often remain silent because of shame or fear or shock. No they do not share responsibility.
  16. CJ

    CJ Bronze Member Admin War Zone Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    What about men who are subject to harassment? What if you DO speak up but then take money to not go public?
  17. Andrew Pratt

    Andrew Pratt Well-Known Member Top Poster

    Agreed. Society holds the responsibility in creating an environment where victims (male or female) feel speaking out will be worse than remaining silent. I'm sure many of the victims of this and other similar cases feel guilt over not speaking up but non of this is their fault.
  18. DYohn

    DYohn Well-Known Member Donor

    Men can be victims too, so the same applies no matter what gender. A victim is a victim and they have no responsibility for the actions of the attacker, nor for "bringing them to justice." As far as people who accept payoffs of whatever sort to remain silent about an attack, while I personally detest this practice by doing so they are coming to terms with their trauma in a way that they decide to accept and no, they bear no responsibility. It is human nature to want some sort of retribution for an affront, and payment can be one way to achieve that. But you should never blame the victim for the actions of the attacker. The idea "if they had come forward sooner we would have stopped it sooner" is a logical assumption, but that still does not mean the victim is in any way responsible for the attacker's actions.
  19. DustinDavis

    DustinDavis Well-Known Member War Zone Member

    This is one of those places where it's very easy for the conversation to go pear-shaped, depending on the room you're in and the people in it. For example, David's response of "no they are not responsible" appears diametrically opposed to my prior response of "...yes they do". So I think I can clarify that I don't intend for my position to represent victim-blaming, and I don't think David and I are actually so far apart. When I say "yes they do" it's just a logical conclusion. Victim chooses silence, perpetrator continues unfettered, one set of consequences ensues. Victim speaks up, another set of consequences ensues. So I mean only that the set of consequences does hinge on the choice the victim makes. I don't mean that the victim should be expected to make one choice over the other, or held accountable for either.
    DYohn likes this.
  20. CJ

    CJ Bronze Member Admin War Zone Member

    Top Poster Of Month

    I appreciate the dialog and the (I think) lack of judgment of my questions.

    Edit after Dustin's post.

    I feel like I'm in the same boat... by personality and years of my line of work I'm a very logical person (to the point that I'm actually irritated and angered by illogical people) and it can sometimes come across as cold and uncaring.
    DYohn likes this.

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